#35: Succession tips from Mark Westcott from Rural Succession Solutions

Welcome to Episode 35 of A Place To Call Home Podcast.

G'day and welcome to another episode of A Place to Call Home podcast, on today's episode we chat to Mark Westcott from Rural Succession Solutions, and you guessed it, we are chatting about all things succession planning.

Throughout this Episode we chat about.
- Marks journey to becoming a Succession planner
- Why succession planning, and estate planning are important for rural businesses.
- The top 5 things that the next generation should be aware of heading into succession
- Communication, communication, communication
- How to start those tough conversations
- How to restart conversations with the next generation if things go to "custard"

You can find out more about Mark Below
Mark Westcott | LinkedIn
Mark Westcott Estate Planning & Legacy Architect
Your Complete Guide to Farm Succession Planning (ruralsuccession.com)
𝙼𝚊𝚛𝚔 𝚆𝚎𝚜𝚝𝚌𝚘𝚝𝚝 (@ruralsuccession) • Instagram photos and videos

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This episode is brought to you by,
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Transcript

Sam Fryer: [00:00:00] Mark, thank you very much for jumping on the place to call 

home podcast. For those that don't know you, can you give a brief introduction about yourself? Where do you live and what do you do? 

Mark Westcott: Sure. Great to be here today, Sam. Mark Westcott's my name.

I grew up, uh, on a sheep property out near Heondon. I think you know some of my relatives out there. Some are, some are still out there. And, uh, the original family farm is, I think it's 113 years, uh, family property in the, in the family this year. So, uh, cotuminal station out there. South of, uh, Hulandan, uh, so that's where I grew up, went away to boarding school, uh, down at the Gold Coast and then up to university at, at, uh, Townsville, did an economics degree up there.

And, uh, now I live back down, uh, Southeast Queensland, down near Southport. So, um, and, uh, I travel a lot around Australia, seeing clients to help with their estate and their succession planning. I've got a little, uh, Cessna 182 and it's, uh, it's been to all parts of Australia. To, uh, to see clients, to help them have a chat about [00:01:00] their estate and succession plan for their, uh, for their rural families.

I just focus with rural families and, uh, and this is all we do. 

Sam Fryer: Thanks, Mark. Um, I must say, I'm, I'm waiting for like a sponsorship shout out for Cessna because the amount of guests I had on that, that fly around the one, and I think you need it in rural Australia, the case that you cover and someone like yourself, if you don't have that for everyday vehicle, you're not covering or visiting the people that you need to, how long have you been a pilot for?

Mark Westcott: Uh, probably about 20 years now and um, uh, so I learned about 20 years ago, but, uh, I, uh, I use the plane as much as I can to, to get out and see people. I love going back, uh, to the family property, obviously, and, uh, catching up with family out there. But, um, but, you know, we go down to, uh, down to Bansdale, for example, in Victoria.

I've been over to Cape Levique. Uh, broom and so on in Western Australia and, uh, uh, other parts of Western Australia, we have clients in South Australia. I've been down to sea and, uh, uh, [00:02:00] obviously on the Eastern seaboard, lots of, uh, lots of people around Victoria and New South Wales and, and even throughout Queensland, who would have thought?

Sam Fryer: I know this, I must say so far, it has been, I've tried to spread out the guests, but there's a heavily North Queensland influence happening in this podcast, but it's a good place to be in a good place to come from. Um, Mark. Can you touch, tell us a bit more about your journey to the real succession solutions in your business now and what you're up to.

Mark Westcott: Yeah, sure. Look, when I, uh, I did an economics degree at university and, uh, ended up in the financial services field is, is where I, um, started after I finished university. Uh, but I, I always had this inner yearning to help, um, originally it was shareholders in, in businesses. I, I wanted to help people get there.

They're legal, not that I'm a lawyer, but I wanted to help people make sure they had legal documentation in place that, uh, uh, that justified the plans they were doing. And from that, I sort of got involved more and more [00:03:00] in, uh, succession planning and estate planning was a big part of the, um, Uh, big part of what I was doing in financial services.

And then eventually, uh, I did a course over in America. I was going over to Chicago every three months, basically for seven, 17 years. So I'm either a slow learner or something, but no, I, I just enjoyed catching up with the quality of the people that were doing the course over there. There was lots of, uh, uh, very successful.

American people and some people from other countries, but it really helped me understand that, um, uh, you know, the financial services industry that I was in, uh, I needed to get more specific in regard to what I was doing. And, uh, hence originally it was called the peace of mind plan. And then finally rural succession solutions was born and I got out of financial planning.

And, um, just on a fee base, I wanted to be able to help people who, uh, really needed to, uh, to get their affairs in order of, uh, a friend of mine, uh, an old schoolmate of [00:04:00] mine died in a plane crash some many years ago. And, um, uh, you know, I've carried that grief all my life because I know I, if I'd tried a bit harder, I could have, you know, Got him to, uh, go to the solicitor, get his wills done and everything up to date.

And, uh, he used to keep putting me off and, uh, tell me I need to go and play a game of golf with him instead. So, uh, but I, uh, I, I failed him and he died in this plane crash, a commercial flight over in Phuket. And, um, He left behind a wife and four children, all still at private schools. And, uh, he left behind a mess and it was, uh, his plans are undocumented and all those sorts of things.

And it, it's really driven me ever since to, uh, to help people make sure that what they have in place, uh, is adequate so that if the worst is to happen. Uh, that the family's going to be okay when they're gone. And that's kind of become my, my mission in life. And some people call [00:05:00] me a bit pushy about this, but, uh, you know, when I say people that have, uh, uh, got a potential disaster, looking them straight in the face, uh, you know, I try my hardest to encourage people.

To do something about that, because I, I don't want to feel a responsibility for the family when they're gone, uh, that I could have tried harder to, uh, you know, help them be okay. Um, and, um, you know, when, when people go and leave a mess and all it takes is someone having a conversation with them and pointing them in the right direction and giving them some tools to, uh, to make, um, you know, plans in place to provide direction for those other people when they're left behind.

And, you know, if I can help in any way there. Then, um, you know, I've grown, I've done something worthwhile in life and that's what I'm hoping for. 

Sam Fryer: So just a bit of a basic background and a step through, what type of process do you go through with your clients? Like what, what work do you actually cover and do for them in this process?[00:06:00] 

Mark Westcott: Yeah, look at, uh, great question, Sam. I mean, at the end of the day, our process, as I said, is all about estate planning and succession planning. Now there's, there's really two parts here. Estate planning is what happens if someone had dropped dead last night. And, and I mean, that's the urgent thing and that's the thing I always make sure we take care of first.

And my life experiences have given me urgency to do that. So estate planning is making sure wills, powers of attorney, advanced health directives, all those sorts of things. Are in place asset protection. So, you know, we just don't mess around with normal wills from the local, um, GP type lawyer. We use a highly specialized estate planning lawyers to put in place things like testamentary trusts and, uh, asset protection for their clients so that they know that if something goes wrong, Uh, the, the wealth for the family is protected through the bloodlines, you know, foul marriages, bankruptcy and, uh, being sued by the neighbor for spray spray drift or, or [00:07:00] whatever, uh, we want to make sure all those things are taken care of, uh, and the assets are protected through the generation.

So the first part is a state planning, uh, you know, for, so for the people listening to, uh, your, your audience today. That's what happens if mom and dad got hit by a bus last night. How do we make sure everything's in place? Everything's documented. Most importantly, all the family will still get together at Christmas time as mates.

In other words, we need to make sure there's fairness in the plans. Uh, not talking equality because, uh, you know, for different reasons, you know, 20 years, working their backside off and the other child might've been backpacking around Europe. Uh, you know, in my mind or anyone else sensible's mind, that means that you don't give half of the estate to each, uh, child.

You, uh, you, you create fairness and you look after those that have been involved in building the business, but you also make sure that everyone's taken care of and, uh, adequately. So that's, that's kind of part one of what we do, [00:08:00] Sam, and the second part is the succession planning part. And that is, you know, hopefully everyone's going to live to the ripe old age of mid nineties or whatever age people want to live to these days.

And I want to make sure we have in place for the next generation, one, certainty, uh, two, open conversation and three, a documented plan, uh, and four is, is mum and dad who are open to handing the farm down to the next generation at the appropriate time. Uh, you know, a lot of, um, the older generation is scared to let go and want to sort of die with their boots on.

And, uh, you know, the kids are there in their fifties and early sixties wondering, you know, when do I get a chance to run this place? Yeah. Uh, so succession planning is all about really making sure the conversation is open between the generations and that, uh, you know, mom and dad, sorry, the grandparents firstly have had a conversation with mom and dad.

in regard to their taking over the business and then mum and dad have the conversation with the children, [00:09:00] uh, to find out one who's interested and, uh, two, how they can make a gradual transition from one generation to the next. I'm not saying that one day parents own it. The next day that the kids coming through, take it over.

Uh, you know, we, we look at, Gradually transitioning from one generation to the next. And, uh, then when the confidence is there, the experience is there, then eventually, you know, you hand over the checkbook and, uh, and, uh, and the next generation start to, to take over. It's a good 

Sam Fryer: point that you made the difference between.

Like, you know, like a will and a succession plan. Um, this way you see, you see how you hear so many times of young couples entering in a family business or something like that, and they say there's a succession plan in place, but all that is, is a will that will be activated once, One of the parent's diary, the parent diary, and it's, um, it's really quite sad for, I suppose this podcast is focused at that, that next generation entering in is where they kind of get stuck in this limbo [00:10:00] period where they know maybe one day, they know one day they're going to get something, but for the next 50, you know, 30 years, 50 years, however long the parents live for, which hopefully they live for a long time, um, they're just stuck in this in between place.

Do you see a lot of that? Or is that a very common occurrence for what you do in your place or like that you've seen and helped you actually create a succession plan? 

Mark Westcott: Yeah. Look, succession planning is a very important part of it. I say the, uh, the estate plan, Sam is urgent because you just don't know when, you don't know when the bus is turning up to collect mom and dad.

So, um, and you know, as crass as that is to say that, I mean, that's what estate planning is all about. It's the urgent, uh, it's the, uh, the accidents and all those sorts of things. But. Um, estate plans are important because, you know, before we help people put those in place, I go and have conversations with each of the children, uh, involved in the family to find out because kids don't always tell the truth to their parents either.

So I find, you know, round table conversations, mom, dad, and [00:11:00] the kids is a waste of time because, uh, usually they'll all sit there and respect their parents and won't say what they really want to say. So I meet with everyone individually and confidentially and let. People tell me what they're really thinking about the future and what opportunities they'd like and so on.

So the succession plan is where we help, um, we want to help people create a timeline, which is communicated to the next generation because, uh, you know, dads have a tendency not to want to let go. And, uh, so by creating a timeline, we say, okay, you know, what age are you now? Um, you know, your kids are such and such an age, they're going to start wanting some control and, uh, some input and so on, you know, by the age X, whatever age that might be.

Um, so let's start putting in place now and they can be rubbery. They can be written in pencil. They can be whatever. Let's start putting in place some plans so that whoever's interest

action for the future looks like, is it going to be next year? Is it going to be the year after, [00:12:00] is it going to be five years from now? Can you start, uh, can you start giving some roles and responsibility to the child coming through or children coming through so that they can get some experience? And dad's never going to always agree with what the, you know, the next generation does because you know, he's done it his way for the last 50 years and of course the kids coming through have been to, have been to ag college or worked on someone else's place and have different ideas, which is great.

But, you know, the parents have got to give those kids the opportunity to come in and sometimes make mistakes, but also sometimes, you know, come up with a way better strategy for, uh, for what the future is going to be. But in answer to your question, very simply, yes, you've, uh, uh, we, we've got to help the parents have the conversation.

Uh, you know, with, so the kids understand what the direction is, what the timeframes are, ballpark. And, uh, and so they know whether they stay on the farm and keep working or they go and get a job in town or the city and go and do something else with their lives. You know, I, I hate saying [00:13:00] situations where kids have been led on for years and years and years.

And then dad says, I'm going to sell it or I'm going to do something else. And the kids sit there and so that was a waste of 20 years. So yeah, very much about, uh, Let's say a state plan first, and then the succession plan of putting a master plan in place.

Sam Fryer: Mark. It's a huge topic, succession planning, but what would be your top five things to think about going into a succession planning process from a young person's perspective coming into a business?

Mark Westcott: Yeah, look, that's a, that's a great question. The, um, the key thing for me, Sam, is that for the, for the young people who are listening to this, force your parents to have the conversation and start the conversation early. You know, the, uh, uh, the conversation needs to be had early. So that everyone can get on with their lives and also have the conversation before the kids start getting married and having their own children and so on, because that really starts to, to muddy the waters in regard to, uh, you know, having extra opinions and, and so on.

[00:14:00] So, get in early, have the conversation, uh, make sure you've got in place a process to protect the assets. So if, uh, you're the young generation that are listening to this and you wanna have a conversation with mom and dad. Ask them a question. You know, have you, have you protected the assets for the bloodline?

In other words, you know, you, uh, I was going to say you guys, but they're pretty girls or guys, you know, you need to, you need to find out from your parents, whether they put in place asset protection strategies so that you know, you That what was in mom and dad's ownership now and make might come down to you is protected to go down to your children so that it can stay in the bloodline.

It's not going to end up with, uh, you know, your wife's next husband's kids or something like that, but you really make sure there's asset protection in place for the bloodline. Uh, trying to get all this stuff sorted before you start getting married, if possible, uh, that just muddies the water. And that's when the arguments start between the different siblings.

So. Try and get the structure in place early [00:15:00] before everyone gets married. Focus on fairness, not equality. When you're talking about these plans, um, handing it, handing a child, a 10 million property, uh, is one thing. And it's probably equivalent, but, and, you know, I'll get shot for saying this, but I mean, if you're given the option of a 10 million property or a 3 million block of cash, uh, it's a tough call because you can take that two or 3 million in cash.

Put it in a, in a managed fund or something and be earning a bloody side, more money than you'll ever run on a property. Now you've got less capital, um, but you can do something with it. You can invest it. You can, uh, you know, do all the sorts of things you want to do with it. The person that gets a property is just a, is just a custodian of that property.

And even though it may be worth more money, traditionally, they're going to pass that on to the next generation. So the kids getting the property aren't getting cash. They're getting the opportunity to work their butt off to earn a living for themselves. So. Just think about fairness, not, not equality when you're looking at [00:16:00] what, uh, what you're wanting out of, uh, mom and dad when you're having a conversation with them.

And, um, the, the most important part to me is, uh, never try and sort this out within the family. Don't sit down with your mom and dad and, and have them try and work out your strategy. This is because these days properties are worth millions, tens of millions of dollars. Um, Get someone from outside the family.

Use absolute specialists. Don't use general practitioners. Don't use people you already know. Don't use your existing accountants, solicitors and, uh, and other family friends and so on to help you with this. Really, uh, really invest in, in getting specialists, professionals from outside who can look at this objectively.

Uh, they don't come in with the knowing who the relationships are between all the different family members and so on. They just come in, they can look at it objectively and say, okay, we'll talk to you all, this is how it's going to work best. So they're the, they're the five things that I'd suggest. 

Sam Fryer: Um, Mark, one, one point then [00:17:00] touching on that, when you start bringing in a facilitator and it's been interesting when hearing different people talk about this is where you actually hold the meetings and like a key thing that I found personally when we did, when we went through our succession process and some other people raised as well was getting off farm, not having it at the kitchen table conversation and getting it like, I know all, whether it's in the local, maybe a meeting room, they have the boardroom in town or something like that, or maybe go right away.

Um, have you found that that work or what's the, what's the case from your point of view? 

Mark Westcott: Yeah, I hear where you're coming from, Sam. That probably, um, that, that would be a good strategy if everyone's meeting together at the one time. If, in other words, if mom and dad and all the kids are sitting down with a facilitator, yeah, get off, uh, get off farm.

But, but see, I don't necessarily agree with that. That concept. Anyway, I'd rather sit down individually when I'm one with, uh, and I even sit down separately now with the mother and the father because, uh, you know, dad probably wants to live and [00:18:00] keep his boots on when he dies. And, uh, mom wants to go and live by the beach.

So, you know, we need, I need to know the truth from everybody and people need to be able, can talk to me freely and fairly and, uh, and so on. But in answer to your question, look, I always, I want to have face to face meetings with people. I like to, uh, to meet people humanly. Um, Zoom and those sorts of things are great tools now from a cost point of view to be able to communicate, but I can do that individually with, with people as well after the initial meetings.

I, I hear what you're saying about off site, and that's a good idea if you can do it. Uh, not always practical, uh, but where possible we do that. Yes, not always practical, that's all. 

Sam Fryer: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a massive bit of country. And usually when everyone starts going their own separate ways, you know, you might be one parts of the state or one parts in the country and yeah, it is a big place Australia at times.

Um, 

Mark Westcott: the other thing, Sam is, uh, what, what I find more and more these days is sure there's mum and dad, the property, there might be one or maybe two kids on the property. [00:19:00] And uh, you know, you've got other siblings, uh, you know, three states away or whatever. So, uh, you know, a lot of times you can't get everyone together even if you wanted to.

And meet them, not meet them all together at the one time, but meet them separately in, in one venue. So, uh, you know, we, we just meet where we can because, and I actually like getting out and seeing the properties. I, uh, I that's the Bush in me. I, I, I don't want to sit in a hotel room or an office or something like that.

I want, I would actually want to get out on the property, see what they do, what it looks like. And, uh, so when you're having a conversation with people, you kind of, you know, have empathy with, um, where they are and what they're doing. 

Sam Fryer: Um, It's a big one there that you raised about the fair and equal part of it all.

Um, because so many times, yes, like you might have the, the, the son or daughter that have come back home, worked on the property. And the most disheartening thing would happen if they got into a meeting room and went, Well, no matter what you've done the last 15, 20 years, um, at the end of the day, it's [00:20:00] still going to be split up.

How do those conversations go? 

Mark Westcott: Yeah, look, um, we have as part of our process a part we call the gratitude conversation with the, uh, children of the parents that own the property. So to your listeners, which is probably going to be mostly those people, um, uh, one of the things I do is sit down and have a gratitude conversation because I don't fare well with people who turn up to me with expectation or entitlement.

Um, so if, if I'm trying to sort things out for a family and I've got one or two kids turn up with an entitlement attitude or a high level of expectation, they don't, they're not going to win points with me because I think everyone should just be grateful. To be honest, an estate plan, a will, a distribution from your parents estate is something to be grateful for, not to feel entitled to.

Now, having said that, if someone's been working on the place for 20 years, Uh, yeah, I also get that there is a, an [00:21:00] expectation that if you've been working hard, you should be treated, let's say more fairly than the kids that have been backpacking around Europe. So, um, you know, but, but I mean, everyone needs to come from an entire, from a, from a, sorry, from an attitude of gratitude in regard to what mom and dad are going to leave for them.

Now, having said that, uh, there's a whole range of things. We have five or six things. I mean, if we had more time, I'd go through them, but I mean, basically you've got to make sure that. The people that have contributed to the growth of the wealth, uh, And you know, we need to make sure that those issues are taken care of and recognized.

So, you know, Sam you've been working on the property for 20 years and, and, you know, little brother came through and he just fresh out of school. You want to give him opportunity and you want to make sure he's treated fairly and has an opportunity to get on and do something with his life but, but, you know, you need to be, Rewarded for might sound contradictory here, but you need to be rewarded for the fact that you've grown the business from a 5 million business to a 15 million business.

So, uh, that's, [00:22:00] that's, we have, they're the sort of comes and I have those conversations with the, uh, the younger generation all the time. So the people understand. That, um, you know, they need to accept that what we're doing is finding a way to be fair for everyone, uh, not to be equal for everyone. There's a great tendency for mothers to want to be, uh, equal.

When we go through and we, we have this tool called the distribution matrix, where we list down all the assets, liabilities, and so on. And then we work out, you know, what, what's going to go to, uh, to each child. And, and sometimes if a child gets a property, uh, they may have a debt. That they have to pay off over the next five, seven years to their siblings to, um, uh, to be able to, um, create, you know, not a quality, but more fairness between the, uh, distribution.

So depending on what other assets the parents have, if they just have the property and nothing else, well, yeah, you know, it's halfway between a rock and a hard place, but you know, in those sorts of situations, what we say is, okay, if the kid's going to get the, uh, [00:23:00] Uh, one kid's going to get the property, he has some liability to his siblings, um, and over a period of time, because, you know, if mum and dad die, die in the middle of a drought, uh, it just starts and makes it really tough for the, the one who gets the property to be able to pay his siblings out.

So we give them time to do that. Um, and, and of course, if in the end of the day, they can't do it, then, uh, then you've just got to sell the property and, uh, and, uh, you know, and, and distribute the funds that way. You know, so it's, it's horses for courses, but we're very much part of the, part of our process is having a conversation with each of the children so that everyone understands what, um, uh, what options are and why things are being done in a, in a certain way too, because, uh, I think if people have understanding and are there as part of, and they understand the logic and they're part of the conversation, very hard for them to turn up afterwards and say, well, you know, I never knew that.

And now I'm angry and I'm going to contest the will. We want to be as transparent as we want the parents to be as transparent as [00:24:00] possible, transparent parents and, um, uh, and make sure that everyone's had the opportunity. If they're really, uh, object to something, say so. And, and, you know, they can say so to me and we take that into account.

But, uh, and you know what, sometimes Sam, um, uh, sometimes we actually recommend to the parents that they might need to just sell the bloody thing. Um, you know, if, if, if it's a property that, um, you know, it might be very valuable, but if, you know, They can't make a living out of it. Um, this coming back to the succession side, uh, you know, if, if people listening here are saying, well, you know, we will, we're a mom and dad to go move to the cottage out the back and we'll come in and we'll take over.

But I mean, the point is mom and dad are still alive. They need an income. Uh, you're going to want an income. So if the farm or the property or whatever, can't validate enough income for the two families, for the parents. And the younger person coming through, sometimes you just got to, [00:25:00] you know, you might as well sell it and as harsh as that sounds, you can't get blood out of a stone and, and everyone, you know, at the end of the day, my loyalty will always initially be to the parents because at the end of the day, it's their, it's their, um, property, it's their wealth.

Uh, and I want to make sure they're okay and they're old age before anything else as much as I want to help all your listeners and and help you find a pathway in to be able to take over and run the property. Uh, you know, you got to look after mom and dad first and you got to make sure they're okay. 

Sam Fryer: Thanks, Mark. That's some pretty good points there that you made. And I think, um, one of the biggest things I've heard from people is, has been communication and the problem that has arisen through the lack of communication throughout the succession process.

What are you, what are some of your tips to improve the communication or communication skills in a family business? 

Mark Westcott: Yeah, look, uh, without question, uh, well, there's two, there's two things that really go wrong with, uh, families in regard to estate and succession planning. [00:26:00] Number one, the biggest one is probably procrastination and that's because, uh, and communication even plays a part in this as well.

But procrastination is usually because dad, uh, doesn't know how to have the conversation because his father didn't with him. Yeah. So. First reason with procrastination is a lack of communication, uh, between the parents and, uh, and your listeners generally, um, and, uh, you know, the, the second, uh, Uh, issue with procrastination is they don't know where to start, who to talk to, how much it's going to cost and, uh, and all those sorts of things.

More importantly, they don't know who to go to. And, uh, you know, they keep getting advice from their local accountant who tells them every year they should do it. Uh, they get advice from their local solicitor who tells them he knows all the answers. And, uh, but to them a lot, and their financial planner probably tells them as well, that's all a tick on the compliance list of all these professionals.

Um, but what they really need to do is to, is to sit down and, uh, and find someone who, who just specializes in this and go talk to that [00:27:00] person. And what we've tried to do, and also, sorry, another reason they don't, they procrastinate is, um, uh, it looks too big an issue. 

Sam Fryer: Yeah, 

Mark Westcott: they don't know where to start because there's too many things involved.

You know, they think, oh, gee, I'll have to get copies of this and copies of that. And it all, all becomes too hard. So, uh, and that's why we break everything down into bite sized chunks and make it easier. But in regard to the communication, the biggest issue is the lack of communication between the generations and, um, which, which comes from ignorance in a lot of cases.

And I don't mean that in a bad way. It just means ignorance of knowing what to do and, uh, who to talk to and so on, but. But the greatest thing you can do is, you know, if you're one of the, you know, 25 to 45 year old people probably listening to this podcast is to just go talk to your mom and dad and just say, look, you know, you don't need to know all the answers, but can we start the conversation?

Because, uh, we just need to have a bit of an understanding of what the future looks like for us. I know you're worried that if succession [00:28:00] goes ahead, you're probably thinking that means you have to get kicked off the farm for us to take over and all those things. And you're worried about so many different things.

They're worried about things that I don't know. They don't know. And, um, And so the easiest way is just go have a conversation with them and say, look, you know, I was listening to somebody the other day and they were talking about this and, you know, there are easy ways to, uh, you know, to, to start all this and the best way is to open up the conversation, you know, can we have a meeting, you know, once a month or once a quarter or something like that?

Can we just talk, sit down and talk about what your plans for the future are? And even if you don't know what they are, you know, Can we just start having a conversation so that, you know, dad, if you want to sell the place, uh, let me know now. Don't, don't take me as cheap labor for the next five, 10 years.

And because that's not being fair to me. Um, but you know, if you do want us to take over or if you want us to help you in the meantime, You know, let's talk about it. So 10 years from now, we're not going to resent and hate each other because you know, we feel like we've wasted our life or whatever. Let's [00:29:00] open up the conversation, have, have, have the dialogue and let's try and write something down.

So we've got a bit of an idea of what the future looks like, but you're absolutely right. Um, and the other thing is, uh, uh, as I said, uh, why I don't have round table conversations with the whole family when that, that to me is not. Good communication, because, uh, kids will only talk to a level of respect for their parents, and they won't talk back.

necessarily have hard conversation with mom and dad because they don't want to offend them. Uh, and, uh, and, and a lot of times they don't want to feel entitled. They don't want the parents to think the conversation is all about money. Uh, I find mostly young kids want to, all they really want from their parents.

And I explain this to the parents. I say, talk to your kids because it's not about money. They're not saying, you know, gimme, gimme, gimme. They're just saying, let me know, let me know what the future looks like and let me know what, um, uh, direction I should take. That's 

Sam Fryer: a [00:30:00] huge one, that one there. And I think you hit the nail on the head day, even though we did previously try and do some play acting and put us in the spot of the.

Young person working in the property and young person working out of it. It seems to be the big one is just that sense of direction. And, and the not knowing is the scariest thing as a young person. Um, like for us personally, that was my biggest fear was. Was that was not knowing what type of future I had or the control over that future I had, which was my biggest driver for what I did.

Mark Westcott: Um, but also communication or the lack of is what, uh, you know, once everyone starts getting married and having their own children and so on, you know, if you haven't worked out some sort of communication structure with, uh, within the family by that stage, it's just going to turn to, um, um, custard. That's a better word, isn't it?

Sam Fryer: Touching on that, if, if in a family dynamics, it has turned to custom, if the generations stopped talking to each other, or there's a lack of communication between the [00:31:00] generations, what, what should they do? Or what can they do? 

Mark Westcott: Uh, look at someone in, uh, to, um, to, to start up the conversation, I find that sometimes that's our role is, uh, you know, because I can go and talk to each, you know, you might have kids on different properties or farms or towns or whatever.

Uh, so my role is to get in, get to talk to everyone. I'm going to tell you too, and I'm going to touch on a subject here you hadn't even thought about Sam, but at one stage, a couple of years ago, 90 percent of our clients, uh, we had someone from the family, um, going to a counselor. Uh, we, we took someone, uh, you know, we directed someone to a, uh, to a counselor, um, for whatever reasons, uh, you know, be they mental health, be they, uh, anxiety, be they whatever.

I'm not going to get in and judge here, but I'm going to say, boy, it's, uh, it's really opened my eyes up to the need, um, of people to be able to have communication and where you can't have communication, it actually festers problems that grow into bigger things. And as I say, that's where we've [00:32:00] needed counsellors to come in and, and try and solve some of those issues in families to, uh, put everyone back on a level pegging again.

And, uh, yeah. You know, look, sometimes you can leave it too late and it's, uh, you're never going to fix it. Um, uh, and that's why I say the conversation should always start early, start the communication early. And if the communication is screwed up somewhere early in the piece, bring people in, um, find ways to make the communication work.

Cause at the end of the day, I mean, every parent wants their kid to get on, kids to get on. I mean, they want to love all the grandkids. They don't want agitation between the, uh, siblings, uh, you know, ultimate all aim of any parent. Is to be able to talk to their kids and their children to be able to get on with no matter if they married badly or well or whatever, you know, they don't, they just want to be able to have the conversation and they want to be able to talk to their grandkids.

So if communication is an issue, boy, that's, um, give me a ring because, uh, you know, that's, uh, one of the things I get most enjoyment from is being able to come in and I can't, you can't fix [00:33:00] it all the time, but you know, the times where I can come in, talk to people, find a way to mend some fences and, uh, And, and open up that, that communication gives me my greatest joy and what I do.

And, uh, that's where I get most reward. 

Sam Fryer: That's a hit on some big points there. And I think that definitely the one around mental health, um, around seeing a counselor. For me, I actually went back and saw a counselor after we went through succession. I was pretty, it broke me, our process and coming out of it, I was just destroyed.

So I had to go back and see someone. I was spending a lot of time through that process when we were going through that eight months, literally crying on my way back, driving back home and stuff like that. And it, um, yeah, it really wrecked me. Mainly because. We had a vision of what I thought would work out and what is a family we thought work out and it didn't work out.

And that's kind of like that sense of failure that came on for me was what my biggest driver for going and seeing someone, but, um, Mark, I'm just going to 

Mark Westcott: cut [00:34:00] in and say, you know, for, um, I'm, I'm taking my hat off to you for, for talking about this, uh, you know, uh, and, and two, let's be clear, we're I wasn't working with you through this period of time, so I wasn't sending, I wasn't sending you home crying, if we can just make that clear.

But, but no, I really applaud the fact that you're talking about it because, um, you know, I, I skipped, uh, you know, I, I brought it up, but I skipped over lightly the fact that 90 percent of our families that we were working with at one point, um, I was getting someone in the family to get involved with a counsellor because, you know, and, and mainly it was cases where people had left it too long.

Uh, where, where the families had left it too long before they'd started the succession conversation. And, and that's where the greatest grief came. And, and, and in fairness to lots of times, it's, uh, uh, when the kids, if I may call you kids, sorry. Yeah. 

Sam Fryer: You're right. 

Mark Westcott: When they, uh, when you guys, uh, get married.

Um, that just by the nature of [00:35:00] creating a separate unit just creates a bit more of a, a barrier between the parents and the next generation is because whether you like it or not, the parents are no longer just talking to you, they're talking to you and, and you know, your spouse is coming through, through in the background and they're giving their opinion and, and that in itself can just really fester and create You know, some of the worst cases I've seen is where, um, and I'm not picking on any class here, but two daughters in law in a row, uh, you know, threatened to, to leave.

If they didn't get what they wanted, they were going to, um, for their, for their husbands, they were going to leave and take the children and the grandparents would never see the children again. And I mean, that's, that's what happens if you leave it too long and things fester. The exponential grief curve, uh, the longer, the longer parents.

Go before they have these conversations with their kids, uh, exponentially, the opportunity for grief just accelerates at a higher and higher rate. Uh, so [00:36:00] always get in early, start the conversation and anyone who's listening, who's, you know, you're sitting there going, geez, I wish my parents would bloody sit down and have a conversation with this.

You know, just, you know, Pack them up, pack, uh, sorry, my apologies, just, uh, so pack yourself up, sit down with your mum and dad and say, mum and dad, you know, don't, don't bring your spouse or anything at this point. Just go talk to your parents and just say, uh, we need to talk about this stuff. You know, we need some, because there's no doubt the spouses will be sitting there saying, you know, you've been working for your parents for 10 years.

What have you got to show for it? You don't own anything. You've got no guarantees. You've got no idea whether they're going to sell the thing out from under you next year. And, and to a, to a high point, the, uh, the spouses are actually right. They're seeing it from, from outside, that you're seeing it from a loving child and going, Oh yeah, they'll look after me.

They'll look after me. You've got to have the conversation. And the, as I say, the parents don't know where to start, who to talk to, how to get it done. And they don't know what they don't know. They don't know what opportunities there are. They don't know easy [00:37:00] fixes for the issues that you're likely to raise.

But, um, People listening to this podcast, if, if it's stalling, uh, and you've got communication issues in your own family, uh, just stand up and, uh, and, and have the tough conversation. So we need to talk about this. Um, you know, it may not always work, but, uh, you, you've got to try it. And that's the only way you're going to resolve anything.

And, uh, I've also had, had people, Sam, your age, uh, you know, young blokes like you, ring me up and say, we don't know how to talk to our mom and dad. You know, can we pay you and can you go and talk to mom and dad and start the conversation for you? And, uh, you know, the parents have to engage me, not, you know, the, the, the children of the parents, obviously, because they're the asset owners.

But at the end of the day, yeah, a few times, in fact, more than a number of times I've had, uh, Sam, your generation coming through to me and saying, um, can you go and break the ice with mom and dad? We don't know how to [00:38:00] do it. And that's, you know, I'm, I'm happy to do that. Um, nine times out of 10, look, I've, I've, uh, I've recorded podcasts on this.

If you've ever heard my, uh, sorted over tea and scones, uh, you know, some, um, Your generation, Sam, who actually had children yourself. And I was probably a bit older than you. They had kids that are just leaving school. And, uh, I had to go and talk to the grandparents and they call me out to their place at, uh, wherever it was in Western Queensland.

And, uh, they said, what we'll do is we'll bring grandma and grandpa down. And we'll just invite them down for a cup of tea. They know you're here. They know what you're here for. Uh, they won't talk to us. Uh, and these people, as I say, that they were the parents with, uh, Children coming through who are ready to sort of get involved.

And um, the grandparents came down and within five minutes over a cup, I call it over a cup of tea, seriously, over a cup of tea and a scone, uh, the first, as soon as the grandparents walked in, they said, you know who we are, shook hands and sat down and [00:39:00] started a cup of tea. And they just opened up and said, yep, we've been meaning to talk about this for years.

Um, Yeah. This is what we think we should do. I hadn't even asked them the question, but just being there and they knew what I was there for, they couldn't talk to the parents, but they could talk to me as an outsider. And we sorted it seriously after five minutes that agreed that the palm and this would go to the parents.

So they're cooking the sconce, you know, everything, everything that I could have wished for, for the whole family was sorted just like that. They'd worked out what they were going to give to the off farm. Uh, in this case, it was a daughter so that they worked out the house on the coast they could give to the daughter, uh, the, the parents who, who'd asked me to come out, um, ended up, you know, the farm was, was, uh, the business was going to come their way.

And all of a sudden the grandkids just started crying and you know what it was, and these are, these kids like 22, 23, they, they were crying because, uh, they had a future. [00:40:00] Yeah. All of a sudden the future had opened up and I always take credit for this and say it was all my good doing of course, but you know, it took five, it was the sconce and I, and as I say in this, in the, uh, the video.

I said, by the time the chocolate cake turned up, mate, it was over. Like, we just about signed all the documents and, but it's happened to me a couple of times and it happened to me again recently. And, uh, um, it just needs a conversation and you're never going to, uh, here, I'll leave you with this. And this topic is you're never going to fix it from within the family.

You know, if you're striking a resistance, if you're finding a lack of communication, if you're finding issues, if there's conflict and, uh, and so on in the family, you're never going to fix it from inside, you've got to get someone from outside, you know, um, and, and don't, don't go to your local accountant.

Uh, you know, no, no, I haven't got a thing about accountants, but I mean, they're too close and they're, they're going to be scared to rock the boat because they might lose the mom and dad as a client. So, you know, don't put them under pressure. Get [00:41:00] someone from outside, someone who understands how this sort of stuff works and, um, get someone from outside to come and start the conversation.

And sometimes it's simple as a cup of tea and scones. 

Sam Fryer: That's it. You've got to learn how to bake. I'm 

Mark Westcott: going to bring my own scones with me next. 

Sam Fryer: I'm aware of just how, how long I've got, got hold of you. So I do, I do apologize, but it's been some great conversations and always wrap up with a couple of questions at the end.

And you know, you would have done a few courses in your time, which one did you get the most out of, or which one would you recommend for people like young people entering in a, in a, in an agricultural business? 

Mark Westcott: Look, I, uh, I haven't done any agricultural courses. It breaks my heart that Longridge pastoral college and all the pastoral colleges seem to have shut down.

Um, I'd only become political if I started talking about that any further. Um, you know, I think. Courses I did were obviously different than probably, uh, you know, people that are listening to this podcast would do, but for 17 years, I [00:42:00] went to Chicago to a business course over there and every three months would turn up and I loved the opportunity of mixing with really successful people, uh, in different industries.

And I learned a lot about my own industry and how I can best help people. I want to be a hero. I want to be a hero, but I want to allow your parents to be a hero to you too. So my aim is to make your parents a hero, but getting back to your point, I think the best thing you can do is go and get some experience off your family farm.

Uh, first go work somewhere else for other people first and come back with a, um, uh, some fresh ideas of your own different ways of doing things so that, you know, you can contribute. And as much as your dad, mom may or may not say we've always done it this way, son, you know, you can come back and say, well, you know, we've been dealing with all these other Farmers and they really successful and blah, blah, blah.

And, uh, you know, this is what they do. And [00:43:00] so how about we give this a try? So, you know, you become more valuable if you go away and, uh, and learn off, uh, away from the family and, and then you come back with some real value. 

Sam Fryer: Have you had any mentors along your journey or, and how much have they helped out?

Mark Westcott: Yeah, look, um, if, if I was, uh, if I worked on a property or something like that, Sam, I'd give you easy answers. Uh, yes, I have had mentors, as I said, that, you know, seven, seven, eight years I went to, uh, Chicago, you know, yeah, that, uh, Dan Sullivan, absolute mentor. And it's just so important to have someone such as that, but I mean, uh, you know, guys in, in, um, rural areas have the opportunity of different, uh, groups, uh, grazing for profit.

And I'm not. Endorsing or not anyone here, but there's different groups that run, uh, workshops with, uh, with, uh, you know, farmers and sons of farmers as part of that. And I, and I deal with a number of clients that we've got at the moment, we're all [00:44:00] part of these different rural groups. And, uh, and I really.

Uh, commend them and suggest that, you know, find one that you think suits you best and, uh, and, and invest in it, get involved in it because, uh, running, running a business in isolation, uh, is never a good idea. One gets very lonely and two, you can get some great ideas from, uh, listening to other people that are doing things differently to you.

And, uh, maybe they're, you know, you might be in cattle, they might be in sheep, whatever, but. Just finding out how they run their business. It's not just about the animals. It's about how you run your business and, uh, your mindsets and all that sort of stuff as well. I think they're all very important. And if you get that opportunity, you should grab it.

Sam Fryer: And lastly, Mark, what would be your one piece of advice for someone starting out on the land ownership journey or, or whether it's just in life in general? 

Mark Westcott: Uh, yeah, look, that's, uh, that's an easy one, uh, take advice, uh, you know, surround yourself with [00:45:00] people who are better than you are, uh, always be the dumbest person in the room.

Uh, always, in other words, always mix, uh, something I learned so early in my life was, uh, mix with people way above you. And hang out at places where the people that you want to aspire to hang out. So you don't, don't hang out at the local pub with all the, the deros, not saying that people go to pubs with deros, but don't, don't hang out, uh, where the people that are there Can't contribute positively to your life.

So always look to be in an environment where people that hang out in that environment can contribute positively to your life, ask great questions. Uh, listen, uh, you know, take, uh, it doesn't have to be advice, but take wisdom from people who have wisdom. And, um, make sure you start all this stuff early.

Don't, uh, don't wait till it's too late. Um, you know, you always, uh, one, one thing that's always held me in good stead, I think, is I'm [00:46:00] always open to learning. I'm coachable. I'm very coachable. And I think, uh, when you think, you know, at all, you're really in trouble. 

Sam Fryer: Too right. Look, Mark, thank you very much for jumping on and, um, I greatly appreciate your time today.

Mark Westcott: Sam, it's been a real pleasure and I hope, uh, those listening today have got some value out of the conversation. I, uh, I love talking about this. So glad I was able to, uh, glad you were able to give me the opportunity. Thank you.